15 comments:

Lurker said...

Yigal Amir's only problem is that he doesn't have the backing of a major terrorist organization, as do the Palestinian prisoners. If Amir's supporters want to procure his release, they should take a cue from the successful tactics of groups like Fatah and Hamas: Start blowing up and shooting innocent Israel civilians, and then stage a kidnapping. At that point, they can start making demands, to which the Israeli government will quickly capitulate.

Thu Apr 19, 08:17:00 PM 2007

Lion of Zion said...

lurker:

it is because amir took his cue from the palestinians that he ended up in prison to begin with.

Thu Apr 19, 08:43:00 PM 2007

Lurker said...

Yeah, but if Amir had a terrorist org supporting him, he'd have been released already. He'd probably have even had had the chance to commit another murder by now...

Thu Apr 19, 08:56:00 PM 2007

Anonymous said...

I know this wont be popular but I have several questions I like to be answered without hysterics in regards to Rabin

1. Seeing as the The Rambam wrote in the Mishne Torah, in Nezkin, Hilchous Chovale Umazik, Chapter Ches, halacha Yud a 'moser' is one who turns over a fellow Jewish person to the enemy,or turns over Jewish property to the enemy. Such a person has no place in the World to Come, The Rambam further stipulates such a person may be executed, for it is a mitzvah, and whomever executes them first, is meritorious. Furthermore, the Rambam states, even though we do not have the conditions for execution, nevertheless, it is permissible and a mitzvah, and whomever executes the 'moser' first is meritorious.


Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat Hilchout Mabad Mamon, Chapter 388, states that a 'moser' is some one who turnsover a fellow Jewish person, or Jewish property, has no place in the World to Come, and the Shulchan Aruch stipulates the 'moser' may be executed in any place, or era

And in Shulchan Aruch HaRav V. VI Laws pertainng to Property, the Alter Rebbe writes
"If a Jew gives up the land of other Jews to Goyim, and he persists in this, that is he gives up the land of three or more Jews, he is a Rodef, and anyone can and should kill such a Jew."

Why would these not apply to Rabin?

2. Seeing as Rabin personally commited murder with the Altalena incident, a fact of which he bragged for the rest of his life, why should anyone be sorry he is dead? We arent supposed to mourn over Rishaim.

3. Seeing as Amir was encouraged to kill Rabin by Avishai Raviv acting under Rabin's orders wasnt Amir merely a Shaliach of Rabin? Yes, I know that it is issur to be a shliach for evil but cant this count as a mitigating circumstance?

Thu Apr 19, 11:57:00 PM 2007

Lion of Zion said...

joe:

"if Israel is going to freely free mass murderers and their handlers, then there is simply no justification to discriminate and also continue to keep Amir imprisoned."

i don't remember too well, but wasn't this the logic for finally releasing the members of the jewish underground that were arrested in the 1980s?

kahaneloyalist:

you make a whole pilpul about releasing amir based on halakhah but then conclude with an appeal to "mitigating circumstances." LOL!

Fri Apr 20, 12:03:00 AM 2007

Anonymous said...

still waiting for the answer to any of the questions I asked, and my final point was that Rabin got himself killed.

Fri Apr 20, 12:54:00 AM 2007

Anonymous said...

I don't think you can compare the two. One is a treacherous traitor within a democracy. On the other side are a barberous "people", lepers, to be exact, who "think" they are fighting for their freedom by killin inocent
civilians.
The bottom line is that we can't take law and order into our own hands, we vote!
HJM

Fri Apr 20, 05:02:00 AM 2007

Anonymous said...

well, Rav Yosef Cairo, the Rambam, and the Alter Rebbe explicitly said we are supposed to take the law into our own hands when we see people doing what Rabin did, and lets try to remember Israel isnt a Democracy, they havent had free elections since 1984, so lets stop kidding ourselves and worshiping a Goyish system. Beyond which Judaism isnt Thomas Jefforson, Jewish government is brought down in Halacha and it doesnt involve elections.

Fri Apr 20, 08:17:00 AM 2007

bar_kochba132 said...

To Kahaneloyalist:
First off, I am in the "orange camp", I live in Israel am religious, I think the destruction of Gush Katif was a crime and those who were actively involved in it were criminals and I believe the soldiers were OBLIGATED to disobey orders to carry out (i.e. I am anti-mamlachti). I also despise Rabin and the whole Oslo gang.
HAVING SAID ALL THAT, your ideas are reprehensible! One can not go about killing those whom we oppose. You are calling for civil war. Do you think the other side would just sit on its hands if we go liquidate those we oppose?
Yigal Amir is the scum of the earth. Whatever his actual role in Rabin's murder was, he gave the post-Zionist ruling clique the greatest weapon to use against us.
Ever since Rabin was murdered, they have tightened their control of the state and suffocated whatever real democracy there was here.
In any event, R. Kahane is at least partly responsible for the mess Israel is in today. THE LEFT HAS ADOPTED HIS POLICY-separation of the two populations in Eretz Israel by FORCE, except it has been the Jews who were expelled instead of the Arabs. R. Kahane's philosophy spread despair among the Jewish population leading to
our current defeatist "leadership".
Fortunately, Kahanism is a not a significant force today and the religious youth is smart enough not to be sucked into it.

Sun Apr 22, 09:18:00 PM 2007

Anonymous said...

Bar_Kochba, I am still waiting for a Halachic counter to my points, I guess I will never get one.

The truth is it was really the Mamlachti state worshipers like yourself who are responsible for Israels troubles even more then the Leftists. You did your best to undermine the Jewish solution to the conflict in a desperate and sickening attempt to get the love of the Hellenists, and you were succesful in brainwashing many youth away from true Judaism which is all the Rav taught, tragically bringing so many to your warped state worship. Baruch Hashem the youth are waking up from your sick dream. And Baruch Hashem you and your ilk werent alive in the time of Yehuda HaMaccabee, it seems obvious whose side you would have joined.

Furthermore if you werent a total ignoramous you would probably know the Leftists were pushing the abandonment of Eretz Yisrael even before the Rav ever suggested instead of expelling Jews it should be arabs expelled, and Shamir himself admitted the only reason he started a settlement enterprise was to try to undercut the Kahanists.

Mon Apr 23, 01:37:00 AM 2007

bar_kochba132 said...

Kahaneloyalist:
You apparently didn't read my posting very carefully,
seeing as how you call me a
"mamlachti state worshipper".
(1) Regarding your halachic
arguments: Rav Yaakov Ariel pointed
out that you can't use "din moser and din rodef" within a state/political context because if our side uses it against people like Rabin, then the Left can claim the same right to use it against our side since they claim the Jews living in YESHA are endangering them by forcing soldiers to "endanger" themselves by protecting them, or by "preventing peace", etc.

(2) If by "mamlachti" you mean that I support the existence of a Jewish state and accept the need to make comprises with the non-religious population in order to make it work, then you will have to use the same epithet on R. Kahane since he got himself elected to the Parliament of self-same "non-halachic" state and indeed made great efforts to be elected to this body. He didn't take the same line as the anti-Zionist Haredim who say the whole thing is "trafe" and the religious community should simply drop out and have as little to do with it as possible.

(3) Have you ever really thought
out your comment that Judaism isn't
"Thomas Jefferson" and "doesn't involve elections". Well, who is going to choose who is going to rule us, you? OF COURSE A HALACHIC TORAH STATE IS DEMOCRATIC!
Halachic Jewish communities have been run democratically for generations. Now, I don't mean democracy in the "western secular" sense, but the people certainly have a vital say in choosing their leaders and determining the policy of the gov't. A halachic Torah state would have a parliament.
Even as an interim step, if Israel
would adopt Thomas Jefferson's ideas, it would be a major step forward. BTW-I oppose the banning of the Kach party on democratic grounds.

(4) I note you didn't make any comment about the fact that the Left adopted R. Kahane's "policy of despair"--forcible separation of the the Jewish and Arab populations.

Mon Apr 23, 08:53:00 AM 2007

Anonymous said...

1) While I respect Rav Ariel thats got to be one of the weirdest arguments I have ever heard. Seeing as how the leftist already allow Jews to be murdered I am not sure what the point would be.

2) lets remember that all your compromises have gotten us. Like when the Mamlachti made the compromise that the Labor Zionists could have the sefardim to do with as they willed so long as the religious zionist school system would be funded? Like when the Mamlachti compromised to join with the Leftists to ban Kach? Like when the Mamlachti compromised with the government in Kfar Maimon?
Yes those have all worked out so well.

3) There are two Halachic opinions regarding a Jewish government on a national level. That of the Rambam and Sefer HaChinuch who require a Malchut, and the Ibn Ezra and Abarbanel who require a weak Sanhedrin which appoints dictators as needed, like the Shoftim. There was always local democracy as described in Pirke Avot, but the idea of a National Democracy being Jewish is simply aburd. Even so there is no Rishon who held that a Goy may even have a position of leadership in a Jewish State let alone being members of the governing body.

4) Actually I did, and the Left had already adopted this policy the day after the Six-Day War ended, they always held that Jews need to be driven out of the liberated lands of 67 and all the lands given to the Arabs. The Rav simply said we should follow the Torah in regards to Goyim that those who dont accept the status of Ger Toshav must get out.

p.s. Why dont you read Rav Kahane's zt'l final sefer Ohr Haarayon I have tried to learn the Mamlachti position so why not learn what the Rav taught.

Mon Apr 23, 03:37:00 PM 2007

goyisherebbe said...

Yigal Amir will go free when the corrupt post-Zionist regime is overthrown, not before. Shimon Peres and Aharon Barak can sit in his jail cell instead. Meanwhile we are headed for a humungous war and missiles will rain on Tel Aviv. May Am Yisrael do teshuva soon (including the hareidim who didn't lift a finger when Gush Katif was destroyed) and may Hashem help us!

Tue Apr 24, 08:48:00 AM 2007

bar_kochba132 said...

To Kahaneloyalist:

First, I suspect that the Rav Ariel you are thinking of is Rav Yisrael Ariel, the brother of Rav Yaakov Ariel, who is the Rav Rashi of Ramat Gan. Rav Yisrael is the one who ran for the Knesset on the Kach list in 1981.

Secondly, you keep giving me halachot about how a Torah state is to be run. You are somewhat like the followers of Feiglin's Manhigut Yehudit who say "vote for me because I wear a kippa (i.e. I have "emunah"). They never explain how they are going to implement their policies on a population that largely doesn't have any idea what he is talking about. Similarly, you talk about a Sanhedrin appointing Shoftim. Who is going to appoint this Sanhedrin? Who are the members going to be? National Religious, Haredi, Hasidi, Litai? Look what happened in the recent appointment of dayanim, 13 out of 15 are Haredim even though the National religious are the majority of the religious population.
The majority of the population is not religous and the religious community has strong divisions. How are you going to impose a Torah state on them? By armed force?
The Kahanist political line, just like Feiglin's reminds me of the Bolshevik's..."if we just get rid of Capitalism, everything will be fine", except they say " We want a Torah State" or "Emuni state" or whatever. Without strict constitutional guarantees (which after 2000 years are not clear in the Torah and commentators) it would degenerate into a dictatorship just like the Bolshevik's did. It is not enough to say "I wear a kippah, trust me".
Regarding your statement that the Left has always wanted to rid itself of YESHA-this is an overgeneralizion. Don't forget that it was the Labor Party (in particular PERES) that built the first settlements, Gush Etzion, Ofra, Kedumim, Ariel, Kiryat Arba.
As bad as Rabin was, he did not destroy any settlements. Even as late as the year 2000, Barak told Arafat that he could not destroy settlements without receiving a full peace treaty in return, which Arafat refused to give.
When it became clear that the Palestinians would never agree to make peace, it was then that the Left adopted Kahane's policy of despair. The Arabs are the symptoms of Israel's problems, not the cause. Maybe the Arabs will leave some day, maybe not, we will have to learn to live with the situation whatever it is. The one imperative(in addition, of course, to education) is settlement, settlement, settlement! This mitzvah from the Torah shows both wavering Jews and the non-Jewish world that we are serious about staying in Eretz Israel.. Kahanist policies have severly damaged the YESHA settlement enterprise.

Tue Apr 24, 10:44:00 AM 2007

Anonymous said...

Bar_kochba, what will it take for the Mamlachti to learn...In the words of former PM Shamir, there would be no settlement enterprise except for Kahane, the whole settlment enterprise was begun to try to draw Jews away from Kahane. You can say he damaged the enterprise but the enterprise wouldnt exist except for him.

So I guess you dont intend to ever answer any points I raised...Oh well, I wont give up the state worshipers no matter how much the seem like Hellenists. You are my brothers even though it would be better if you feared Hashem as much as you feared the Goyim and Hellenists. If you want a detailed account of how a Jewish state will be run just read the Rav's books, and you should try to remember that Hashem promised us we would have peace when we follow the Torah, not when we have a Democracy like America...

Tue Apr 24, 10:12:00 PM 2007

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