Eretz Yisrael Time

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006
I feel a little bad.

Because of me, some little Lubavitch kid is going to go home and get smacked upside the head when he asks his father who Yeshu was.

I couldn’t help myself.

I was driving through Jerusalem and was confronted by posters that said the Rebbe is the Mashiach and he is the leader Israel needs. At the red light some little kid came over and tried to give me a pamphlet. I’m already thinking J4J and Hari Krishna and so I asked him he if knew that the Rebbe was dead. The conversation went on, with me becoming more and more despondent as I saw with my own eyes how Chabbad is breaking away from Torah and Judaism right in front of us.

At some point when the conversation with this little boy was getting completely ridiculous and I asked him if he knew who Yeshu was. He, of course, didn’t. We talked a little more and the light changed.

Afterwards I felt bad that I introduced him to the idea, even though his teachers and parents are introducing him to what is turning out to be the modern version.

I stopped short of telling him that it is forbidden to eat Chabbad Shchita - there’s a Chashash of ‘Ever min Hachai‘ (concern about eating the limb of a still living animal).

Seriously though, I don’t know what can be done at this point, but Lubavitch is taking a very wrong turn. It’s no longer a joke that Chabbad is the religion closest to Judaism.

53 comments:

Ben Bayit said...

The messianism in certain sectors (i.e. very mamlachti) of the National Religious or Religious Zionist communities - both on the left and the right - is much much worse than what Chabad is dealing with.

Joe Settler said...

You have got to be completely kidding.

If you can't tell the difference between the aspirations for the Mashiach and working to that goal, which is normative Judaism, and a (soon to be) breakaway religion that prays to/for a dead man and even says he's going to be having a second coming (or that he isn't even dead), then that leads me to suspect that you might be Chabbadnik.

But not only is Messianism a defining feature of religious Judaism, it is something ingrained in all Jews, which is why we even see leftists Peace Nowniks desiring their immediate utopian messianic society.

But Peace Now like Chabbad, without proper Torah leadership quickly degrades into something other than what we Jews should be aspiring and desiring.


Chabbad once had something positive to offer, but if it doesn't extricate itself from its new false god of the Rebbe it will go the path some other people went 2000 years ago.

There is nothing worse for Chabbad right now then its up and coming definition as the new Xianity. Wake up and realize that.

Joe Settler said...

Test time:

Go to any 10 random Chabbadnikim and get them to say "The Rebbe is dead, and he is not the Mashiach", without them adding on any "but..." or any other conditional or modifying clauses.

The results will scare you.

It is unlikely you will even be able to get them to even say the first part.

MAOZ said...

Joe, you're right. And it's scary.

[No, no, I don't mean it's scary that you're right. I mean the fact of the new-variant xtianity that seems to be budding right in front of our eyes is scary.]

-- MAOZ

lurker said...

Joe: Like you, I am very disturbed by the "Rebbe is the Moshiach" cult. However, you should also bear in mind that not all of Habad subscribes to this notion, or participates in this campaign. While the phenomenon is very strong in Israel, it does not represent the entire movement. There are plenty of other Chabadniks, particularly in the U.S., whose feet are planted much more firmly on the ground. They concern themselves with Jewish outreach, and not with all this nonsense.

Regarding Habad as the "new Christianity": In truth, the fundamental point of contention between Judaism and Christianity is not the Christian belief that some fellow who died was the Moshiach. In spite of the amount of "press" that this subject receives, Christianity would never have broken off from Judaism over this issue alone. The very parallel that you draw with Habad is ample proof that normative Judiasm can tolerate a sect that believes such a thing. The actual issue that makes Christianity completely incompatible with Judaism is their belief that God is comprised of multiple componenents, and that one of those components existed as a physical, corporeal being. This is apikorsut at the very least, and also avoda zara (at least for a Jew).

So long as Habad doesn't veer off into that sort of idea ("the Rebbe is God"), I think that they'll manage to remain "in the fold" -- even if they end up marginalizing themselves into the fringes.

Joe Settler said...

I wish then that the non-cult members would get up and unequivically say what they think - but that won't happen, because they are either too small, too afraid, or deep down don't (want to) believe it.

Chabbad is taking a very bad turn, it has to either make a serious correction soon or it will completely leave Judaism, and that would be a tremendous loss to all of us.

Milhouse said...

Excuse me? So they believe that the LR is going to be the mashiach. So what? What gives you the right to call that heresy? Do you have a source that says it's forbidden to believe that?

That he will return from the dead, you surely believe too - techiyat hametim is as basic a belief as biat hamashiach. So the only difference between you and them is that you believe when he comes back he still won't be the mashiach, and they believe he will. Certainly for most of the past 2000 years Jews have expected that the moshiach will be someone who has not yet died and come back, so saying the opposite is different and untraditional, but how do you turn that into something akin to Christianity?

Do you think we rejected the Christians because they beleived their leader was the mashiach? We didn't. We rejected them because they abandoned Torah and Mitzvot, and accepted masses of antisemitic goyim without converting them, until the antisemites became the majority and took over. If they hadn't done that, they'd still be accepted as a valid – if somewhat eccentric – group within Orthodox Judaism. Have the Lubavs done anything like that? Of course not. They're more careful with all the mitzvot than you are, the average Lubav probably learns more than you do, and the LR's emphasis on giyur kehalacha will ensure that they don't absorb thousands of antisemites and get swallowed up by them.

So what's your beef with them, exactly? You should wash your mouth out for speaking like that about so many yere'im ushlemim. Or travel to the LR's grave (yes, he has one) and apologise.

Milhouse said...

And ever min hachai? What's that about? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Greg said...

First of all, let me say, Joe, that I'm very, very glad you had the balls to bring up this issue cause it's been bothering me a lot. The Rebbe-believing sector of the Chabbad community is has lost its marbles, jumped off the cliff, lost its grip on reality, etc.

and milhouse: I quote you: "Do you think we rejected the Christians because they beleived their leader was the mashiach? We didn't. We rejected them because they abandoned Torah and Mitzvot, and accepted masses of antisemitic goyim without converting them, until the antisemites became the majority and took over. If they hadn't done that, they'd still be accepted as a valid – if somewhat eccentric – group within Orthodox Judaism."

What are you on, my brother? We shunned the Christians exactly because they believed Yeshu was the mashiach; and what's more they would have never been accepted as a valid group within Judaism, just like I hope the new Chabbad movement isn't going to be justified much longer by the Jewish officials!

Happy Pesach.

Joe Settler said...

Milhouse: If you want to be an Xian go ahead (don't actually). If you want to confuse T'kufat Hamashiach and Tkufat Tchiyat Hameitim, go ahead (but you are confusing your basic principles).

Do they learn more than me me? Maybe, but I don't think that learning that a dead man is the Messiah, and confusing t'kufot really counts.

But if I (unfortunately) understand you correctly, then you are a Jew for Yeshu... a Jew who accepts all the Torah and Mitzvot, except that for you Yeshu, I mean the Rebbe, is the Messiah. Is this what you advocate? J4R?

Stop distorting things. The Rebbe is not the Macshiach. He did not qualify on a number of grounds (besides that he is dead).

If you didn't understand the Ever min hachai comment. Too bad for you.

But stop being a Jew for -Y-e-s-h-u- Rebbe. Chabbad has already taken to first steps towards splitting away.

Please, step back from the edge.

(As for the Rebbe in his grave, I am sure he is spinning in it (and not towards Israel) with what has become something so distorted).

Anonymous said...

Ben Bayit is too close to being correct. The settler community belives that the Land of Yesha is the Moshiach, even at the expense of demographics, while some chabad belive the rebbe never died. Both need a reality a check.-


tal

Joe Settler said...

Actually both you and Ben Bayit are incorrect.

I do not know of a single member of the “settler community” that thinks the “land of Yesha” or any land is the Mashiach. I don't think you can name one either (I won‘t even add a caveat like “anyone mainstream“, I don‘t think any such a person exists except in the minds of certain detractors).

The settler community believes, as does the general religious public, just as we state in our prayers, that our return to Israel is "reishit tzmichat geulatenu" (and we all still say that we believe that the secular state played a role in it, even if that role seems to be ending).

Returning to our homeland, the beginning of political independence, the return of Judaism to discussing and dealing with national issues and not just personal ones, is a step forward to the time of the Mashiach - which the Rambam clearly describes as a period of Jewish political and religious sovereignty and independence, and worldwide belief in one G/d.

Our return, and at least partial control of the land of Israel are (still incomplete) signs that the time of the Mashiach is hopefully approaching and developing (despite any hopefully temporary steps backwards).

Mashiach is not some magical figure. He is a flesh and blood (living) Jew that will eventually take the role of world leader, rebuild the Temple, and bring about the end of the exile and establish worldwide acceptance/recognition of the unity of G/d.

The return to our homeland and control of our holy sites are initial steps towards the time of Mashiach. We also believe that a certain amount of “hishtadlut” is required on our part to maintain this forward momentum.

It is unfortunate that secular Jews choose to slander the “settler community”, that we supposedly believe in some sort of idol/land worship, but that has to do less in part with their general lack of knowledge of Judaism but more so their fear that the religious will take over, and in many cases due to the intrusion of far left secular idolatry/ideology.

It is also a shame that the Chareidi community has chosen to disengage from their role in bringing the end of Suitcase (exile) Judaism and its return to its nationalistic roots that existed before the second exile for their own reasons. That is also an indication that the Mashiach still isn’t here.

Unfortunately, the Chareidi community would rather treat the secular government like a non-Jewish government rather than face the issues and responsibilities involved with actually reintegrating Judaism and national leadership (plus their rather passive belief that everything will all happen miraculously without anyone playing any active role besides prayer and learning), this is also why they can sit in the government and take money while denying they play any role. (And to reiterate something I said a long time ago, the general religious community made a huge mistake sitting in the government with Shinui which made their actions as bad as UTJs and Shas’s over the years).

The public (and seemingly private) face of Chabbad has gone over the edge and are incorporating unJewish philosophies into their beliefs (and perhaps eventually actions) because of the trauma of their loss and other reasons to complex to get into here.

But to summarize, the “Settler community” and the “National Religious” community do not believe the/any land is the Mashiach, and that is simply a rather foolish comment to make and believe.

Joe Settler said...

To correct something I said above, the Chareidi community does believe in Histadlus too, but they completely limit it to personal issues and refrain from any potential national ones.
The exception was Chabbad, but without a new Rebbe to guide them they are going over the edge.

elchonon said...

Joe,
Did you take me into consideration when you wrote this up? You have been reading my blog for ages and know my opinon's on this. AND that i'm no ignorant bum. (ok maybe a bum but not ignorant hehe)

Actually zionism is nevua sheker! its no reishit tzmichat geulatechem.. rather it is reishit goyim amalek!

Mishpacha magazine had a great article on Dr pacifici who was at the zionist confrence in basil and stood up and went to the podium and said "since no one else mentioned the name of hashem here i will say hashem's name" when they were screaming that hashem had no conection there he tore up his membership card.

By the seder i was a bit drunk and i was saying divrei torah for hours.. one thing i was saying when we were ready to bentch..

"shir hamalot beshuv hashem et shivat tzion HAYINU KECHOLMIM"

when we returned to zion we were a bunch of dreamers~!! we fell for the false messiah that was zionism..

Joe,

While I myself am not one to go around saying "yechi" it happens to be that I believe that the rebbe is moshiach..

Yes some chabadnikim need a good smack and to see the rebbe as more of a tzadik of basar v'dam..

But joe your not a chasid.. how would you be able to relate the conection between a chasid and his rebbe ?

While all of us jews have in ourselfs "elokus" as we have a nefesh elokus a g-dly soul which is a actual portion of hashem as it is writen "v'ata nisati bi" In you I have placed myself...

What is the concept of v'asu li mikdash v'shachanti betoacham ?
Why "in them" because in each of us jews we have a mikdash that g-d dewells in..


Does chabad do anything that violates the torah ? You see any chasidim bowing down in front of a picture of the rebbe ? oh which reminds me.. go to mizrachi yshivish house in jerusalem and they all have a nice big picture of ovadia yosef!

Joe,
Comparing this to xtianity is a BIG mistake... because all of xtianity's ideas come from judaism..

Moshe was "eved hashem" he was the servant of g-d..

A 2nd coming ? no that is techiyas hameisim.. oh and joe there are hundreds of diffrent opinons on the order of moshiach's coming..

Fact is any satmar chusid will tell you that YOU pushed off moshiach's coming!

According to the nevua of amos and subsequant gemara sanhedrin and rashi's perush on this...

"there will be 7 weeks of suffering.. and on the 8th week moshiach will come"

On a timeline matching the nevua to the dot.. you have the holecaust as the war of gog umagog..

Instead the timeline was re-adjusted and the holecause falls into the 3rd week which says "there will be hunger everywhere.." rashi says "both the young, the old and the tzadikim will die"

Maybe we fullfilled the nevua of v'shavu banim ligvulam.. od titatu kramim b'harei hashomron.. od yeishvu zekeinim uzekeinot b'rachvei yerushalayim...

But we sure havent fullfilled "velo yinchashu...."

So the rebbe died...? Does that mean he cannot be moshiach ? Since when did dying disqualify anyone from being the goel amiti ?

Does not moshiach ben yosef slaughter edom and then get killed ? and then brought back to life... in fact accroding to rav nachman of braslav the last part of chad gadya refers to this.. the cow (red - edom) the shochet - moshiach ben yosef.. who gets killed by satan...

Chizkiyahu was moshiach hashem. melech beis david and goel amiti.. But he sined..

Bar kochva was believed to be moshiach by rabbi akiva but he sined....

According to all poskim and the rambam in particular (see hilchos melachim) no one needs to crown a melech beis david..

Hashem promised that the kingdom of beis david will never be broken.. Inasmuch as david hamelech the father of the malchus was a mashiach hashem and was anointed by shmuel hanavi..

his decendants need not be anointed..

in fact.. the lubavitcher rebbe. as ben achar ben in malchus beis david. as a tzadik and torah scholar... needed to just stand up and anounce "i am your king"

Anyone that refused to listed to him would be morid b'malchus...

Joe Settler said...

Elchonon, actually I did not have you in mind because I would have assumed you would have paid attention to one particular important statement you made.

"Bar kochva was believed to be moshiach by rabbi akiva but he sined...."

Bar Kochva was fit to be the Moshiach, but he died and did not fulfill what was necessary - therefore he wasn't the Moshiach.

(Hizkiyahu too)

And in the same vein...

The Rebbe may also have been fit to be the Moshiach, but he died and did not fulfill what was necessary - therefore he wasn't the Moshiach.

We look at the results. No results, no Mashiach.

---
A few other points. All of Xianities ideas did not come from Judaism. They originated there, but then they included many pagan concepts (besides getting rid of the Judaism) to make it more acceptable to the non-Jewish masses.

Without mentioning names, there are other people that are direct descendents of Dovid and Shlomo so they could also make the same claim to feality as you say the Rebbe could. It's meaningless.

Malchus also requires the acceptance of the people, that may be one of the reasons that Dovid left when his son revolted and had the support of the people.

On your other points, I unfortunately know of some Chabbadnikim that are deifying the Rebbe, and I really don't get the whole Ovadia Yosef (and Baba Sali and R. Yaakov Abuchatzera) picture thing myself, but regardless, they still aren't calling them the Messiah.

Joe Settler said...

(We'll talk more about your other points another time.)

elchonon said...

joe,
why did bar kochva die ? BECAUSE he sined.. his sining is what disqualified him...

This concept of "why the rebbe"... there are MANY books on this...

Rosh bnei yisrael, rabim hashiv miavon.. how many other leaders from malchus beis david have brought hundreds of thousands of jews to judaism?

But your right joe. a melech is al yidei kabalat ha'am... and THAT is the concept of yechi...

I agree that they go too far.. but to compare it l'havdil to J is wrong.

Joe Settler said...

Elchonon,

If I recall correctly, with all due respect, the Gemorah says that only 10 people didn't sin in their lifetime, and the Rebbe wasn't on the list.

My wife wants me to add that I am not comparing the Rebbe to Yeshu, just what his followers are doing to him and his name/legacy.

elchonon said...

Joe,
Its not a factor of sins per see. But in what bar chova sined at (he was boastfull about his powers and denying that it was hashem that was powering him.. chizkiyahu made the same mistake at a diffrent level..)

Agreed about what some chasidim are doing.. They are too obessed with it and at a point turn it into a religion.. but you need to examine the root of each individual.. and see what his beliefs are in the matter.

On a side note.. out in your part of town hop over to yitzhar and talk to rav ginzburg...

Anonymous said...

Joe wrote-
"Mashiach is not some magical figure. He is a flesh and blood (living) Jew that will eventually take the role of world leader, rebuild the Temple, and bring about the end of the exile and establish worldwide acceptance/recognition of the unity of G/d.

Well in my Judaism, the Moshaich, has not arrived yet, so I dont really know WHAT WHO or IT is the Moshaich. Moshaich can just be a symbol of a time period. Maybe Modanna/ Esther knows more and she can help us in this matter.

tal

Joe Settler said...

The funny thing is that turning dead men into the Messiah seems to be the up and coming trend in Judaism.

Chabbad has the Rebbe, and the Left have Rabin.

orange&black said...

tal: don't show off your ignorance (but modanna would be proud of you).

Anonymous said...

Orange & Black-

Ignorant is claiming you know who is the Moshaich.

Ignorant is claiming Israel is still in Gush katif.

-tal

Anonymous said...

http://yudelkrinsky.com/

Yudel Krinsky is the Messiah.

orange&black said...

besides the lubavitchers and christians, where did you see anyone on this thread or elsewhere say they knew who the messiah was? where did you see anyone say we are still in gush katif? (not that we won't return to it). if in your lack of understanding of judaism an object and not a person can be the messiah then the problem is by you. among other things it means you don't even know the definition of the word.

orange&black said...

hebrew lesson for tal: 'moshiach': translation: "anointed one", in jewish history and theology it specifically refers to human individuals that were ceremonally anointed (smeared) with oil and appointed/consecrated to certain high position. it does not and has not ever refered to land, time periods, or modanna.

Anonymous said...

The difference between the Rebbe and the Rabin is very significant. The first was a failed mesiah, the second was a false mesiah.

elchonon said...

Joe,
Show me ANYWHERE in judaism saying moshiach cant come from the dead!!

I'm very offended that you would c'v compare rabin yimach shemo with lehavdil elef havdalot the rebbe.

Joe Settler said...

Elchonon,

I write the following with all due respect, but show me ANYWHERE in Judaism saying that the Moshiach can’t spend some time as a frog until he gets kissed by a princess and transmogrifies back into a human.

I assume I haven’t made my point clear enough yet, so…

The saddest thing is, based on your comment, you would actually now need to convince me why Yeshu is not the Moshiach (which he isn‘t), as his claim as a dead-eventually-to-be-resurrected Messiah came first.

Certainly for anything I say, you will come up with a sophist (and perhaps even irrational) argument to maintain your position. I will say that the Rebbe never built the 3rd Temple and you will reinterpret the Temple to mean 770 or some sort of personal Temple. You might say the New Testament differentiates between the two of them and I will say that Yeshu didn’t write the N.T. while the Chabbad has the Tanya.

I will say he never fought any battles, destroyed Amalek, nor achieved political autonomy for the Jews, and you will somehow reinterpret some actions of his as having done so. I will say that he never ingathered the exiles back to Israel, and you will reinterpret that to mean that he caused many Jews to come back to Judaism (even though just a few hundred years ago the majority of Jews were religious, so the ingathering cannot possibly be talking about that).

I will say that my limited research in the matter seems to indicate that while the Rebbe might be descended from Dovid, he doesn’t seem to have been descended from Shlomo, and you will find some unbelievable work-around to that too.

You might misinterpret the Gemorah in Sanhedrin without realizing that it then gives you a bigger problem.

That Gemorah is discussing qualities of the Moshiach and says that if we would be describing a qualified dead man for Mashiach, then it would be Daniel. The Gemorah there is not saying that the Moshiach could be a dead man, just that among those that are dead, Daniel had the best qualities.

Of course if you misunderstand this Gemorah to claim that a dead man could be the Moshiach, then you are actually arguing against the Gemorah, which then clearly states that Daniel is the best qualified. I wouldn’t think you are allowed to argue against such an explicit statement to say that the Rebbe is better qualified than Daniel, so let’s forget Yeshu’s claim, Daniel’s was first.

Elchonon, I seriously mean no disrespect, but the Rebbe is not the Moshiach. He isn’t coming back to be the Moshiach. He never fulfilled the requirements to have been the Moshiach.

What Chabbad is proposing is not something that is part of Judaism, and like Xianity, it will cause a rift that will grow until Chabbad goes its separate way, unless this NONSENSE is stopped.

elchonon said...

Joe,
Yeshu was a navi sheker and oved avoda zara who was michalel and metameh the kodesh hakedashim...

Just to name a few of his sins.

Not to mention that while he was from shevet yehuda he was from the lineage of yehoyakim ? who hashem cut off from malchus yehuda. (i may be mistaken with which king..)



Joe,
Before the rebbe was around the concept of moshiach being a live person was KOFER!!


There are those that hold that the beit hamikdash will come from the sky...

But most hold that the beit hamikdash will ONLY be rebuilt AFTER bias goel.

Furthermore there are many macholtet regarding the stages of moshiach (eliyahu hanavi, techiyat hameitim some say 40 years after, beit hamikdash being rebuilt)

The vilna gaon in his sefer writes that just like by cereal before you eat it you must sift thru 3 parts.. so too the world must sift thru 3 enemies before the guela amita..

Edom (amalek) yishmael and the eruv rav...

The curent war is called the war of gog umagog...

In each generation there is a moshiach.. a nasi hador. In this generation it was the rebbe.

While I myself do not say that the rebbe is alive basar v'dam and as in the case by yakov where rashi writes "tzadikim lo mes"

I wont even say that the rebbe is in the same status as eliyahu hanavi or chanoch

I in no way whatsoever say that the rebbe as moshiach had to die or a 2nd coming in that mainframe..

Elisha performed techiyas hameisim.. nu?

Joe,
While me or you are no great gaonim I suggest you go to a chasidic rav and ask him this question.. because a litvak will obviusly say it was rav shach :)

BTW i saw a letter by rav soleveitchik saying that the concept of saying the rebbe is moshiach is something that is fully in judaism.

Joe Settler said...

Hey, if we are going to a Chasidic rav, can go to one of those new Chasideshe Satmar Rebbes?
But should we go to the one causing the chillul hashem that drives the Cadillac, or should we go to his borther, the one causing the chillul hashem that drives the SUV?

I do not deny that while the Rebbe was ALIVE he perhaps had the potential to be the Moshiah, just as other known and (more importantly) unknown people had or have, but once he DIED without fulfilling the requirements, that's it - he is out of the running and disqulaified.

And before the Rebbe, the concept of Moshiach being a live person was defnitely not Kofer.

---
While I don't think Yeshu was never metameh the KK, Jewish sources indicate other serious misbehaviors relating to the Beit Hamikdash and an incident or two with Rav Yehuda HaNasi if I recall correctly, but you are close enough. He also couldn't have been from Dovid either (besides that Jewish sources indicate that his father was a Roman Legionaire whose name I forget at the moment) as his followers claim his mother was a virgin which then excludes her husband from the process.

Wouldn't you agree that Rav Moshe qualified much more as a "Nasi Hador" than the Rebbi. After all, the Rebbi was only the leader of the Chabbadnikim, Rav Moshe's rulings were followed by most Orthodox?

Joe Settler said...

I think I will need to post a new article soon, because this thread is really not the purpose of this blog.

elchonon said...

Joe,
The rebbe was no posek, He would most of the times refer people to a rav.

I have 0 faith in rav moshe and rav shach..

If rav moshe was such a big posek where was his screaming on the peace affairs ?

I did however see a letter by him saying it's assur to give away land.


Shach is...Lets just say that mihu yehudi did not pass because it was floated by chabad, shach was head of shas and shach hated chabad

Way to go!!!


yeshu was metameh the KK by entering it! and then writing the shem hameforash and carving it into his skin...

Joe,

We allways see things in judaism we dont like or agree with. There will allways be others that will attack our behaviour as being against torah...

The beis hamikdash was destroyed from sinas chinam.

As long as it is not STRAIGHT out oved avoda zara dont do any general bashing.

You can compare people who do diffrent things to J but not the entire belief in general

Joe Settler said...

You may be right that Y went into the KK to write the Shem Hameforash. I was thinking it over and that would have been the most likely place where he saw it. When I learned about it it was implied that he was simply in the Beit Hamikdash and saw it there, but your description makes more sense.

Joe Settler said...

I don't think he could have been metameh the KK as its Kidusha was inherent once it was consecrated. But I get your point.

Were you even born when Rav Moshe was alive?

elchonon said...

Joe,
His going into the KK was desecrating it. He AT LEAST desecrated the shem hameforash and was chayav misah just for entering the KK.

In the gemara it says that after rebbi (rav yehuda hachsid) was niftar they used to take out his chair and perpare a place for him.

He used to come back from the dead every friday night and make kidush and be yotze the rabim...

Furthermore people would write him pidyan nefesh...

And more.. full gemara quotes to follow.

Joe Settler said...

Elchonon,

Do me a favor. No full quotes below. He's dead. Move on. (Same thing to Breslev, maybe they'll stop standing on street corners and dancing up and down in the streets).

Read this instead:

http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/

Joe Settler said...

This thread is officially closed.

Elchonon, you might want to read the book "Epoch of the Messiah" by Elchonon Wasserman.
You'll also find him railing against the (Religious) Zionists as he describes the period before the Mooshiach comes.

Joe Settler said...

Almost closed.

As you know, when Chassidism first started there was a clear and open concern as to the direction it was taking.

It is relatively clear that it was on the path of breaking away from mainstream Judaism - just like other sects before it, particularly as it took many esoteric, unusual, fringe, and other practices and beliefs and introduced them to their general public.

It was specifically the opposition of mainstream Judaism to Chassidism that forced the followers of Chassidism to stay on the Judaism track as they "davka" proved they weren't breaking away.

Consider my Tochacha in the same vein.

sarah said...

I know the thread is closed and I don't wish to reopen it, but on behalf on my family, Chabadnikim in the US soon to be in Israel, "the Rebbe is dead and he is not Moshiach."

There. Hope that makes you feel better. We're not all nuts, and outreach is the goal and was the brainchild of the Rebbe. Great guy! NOT Moshiach.

Joe Settler said...

Fot that comment it was worth reopening the thread.

That is the Chabbad I grew up respecting.

Now talk to Elchonon - please.

Anonymous said...

...sad that you are closing this thread as I was preparing an Hallachic response undercovering your complete ignorance of Jewish Law and Principles ... not to mention absolutely false accusations and vulgar statements.

Please keep to "Politics" where you are more on target.

...a Rabbi and Dayan.

Joe Settler said...

...it looks more like I saved you a lot of bitul zman.

...a simple Jew

Anonymous said...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1143498896953&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

orange&black said...

and bitul torah too!

Rafael V. Rabinovich said...

First of all, Joe, what is all of this Chabad bashing for?!
Secondly, the meshichist are the most active supporters of the Eretz Yisrael movement. What do you gain with shunning them?
Thirdly, the ideas of Chabad are not related to those of Christianity. Chabad is not “close to Judaism”, it IS Torah Judaism, 100% unadulterated.
The idea of the Rebbe STILL being Mashiach is not taken from, chalilah, the New Testaphony. It is learned from a guemara yerushalmi (B'rachot 2:4) that states, clearly, that Mashiach could be from among the living or from among the dead. A very similar statement is foung in the Midrash Eicha Rabba 1:51. And didn’t the Ramchal explain that Moshiach would, indeed, start techiat hameitim?
The Abarbanel, in sefer Yeshuat Meshichai, chapter 1, writes, "There should not be a question in your mind whether Mashiach could be someone who will come after passing, because it says this in the Gemara. The Gemara says there is that possibility: if he’s among those who passed on, then it’s Daniel Ish Chamudot."
Last, but not least, how come I can’t find a single comment in your entire blog mocking the kahanists singing “od Kahane chai”… or, for that matter, the post-zionists singing “David melech Yisrael chal vekayam”?!
Chabad, the derech of the Rebe, is the derech of the Torah. It is in accordance to it that Jews must remain in the path of the Torah, and that Eretz Yisrael must remain in Jewish hands.
For all I am concerned, if it wasn't thanks to the Rebbe, I would not be here, going through your block, and would certainly not have bothered to open my own.

Renegade said...

To Elchanan & Rafael Rabinovich: why are you trying to confuse us with the facts? Lubavitchers are just the new xtians and thats that!

Joe Settler said...

Rafael,

Tochacha is not bashing. Chabbad has done wonderful, incredible work in reaching out to Jews and bringing them back to Torah, but now it is going off the Derech in a way that is potentially dangerous to its future connection to mainstream Judaism and Jews.

It is important that this be recognized, accepted, and rectified by Chabbad.

The meshichistim are simply making a mockery of all of Chabbad’s previous good work.

Why would I shun the aid of the Meshichistim? I would answer that I happen to also shun the aid of another religious group that wants to assist us, as their motivation is in their hopes that Armageddon will then arrive sooner. To reuse another phrase: Tzedek Tsedek Tirdof, the ends don’t necessarily justify the means (or motivations).

If you look at the very significant schisms in Jewish history, most started with a charismatic leader (and often attractive idea) who eventually took his followers down the wrong path by first by making initial and sometimes seemingly trivial deviation in Judaism but eventually going the way of complete break.

Consider the history of the Tsadukim, which according to some originated simply from a misunderstanding by the students of a certain High Priest regarding the concepts of reward and punishment after death; the Karaites, which essentially started as a political dispute between 2 brothers; Shabtai Tzvi (misplaced Messianic fervor), and Yeshu.

I don’t have all of your sources available to me at the moment, but with all due respect, from the ones I have I see you are clearly learning (and applying) them wrong.

If nothing else, since you really, really, want to be so literal and misread (and mislearn) that the Moshiach can come from the dead, then the Yerushalmi and Eichah Rabbah you mention both literally only say that his name is David (not Menachem Mendel, or any other name variation) so again, the Rebbe ZT”L is disqualified.

You definitely misunderstood the Gemorah and Rashi about Daniel, which does not mean that the dead Daniel could be the Mashiach, but rather means that Daniel had the right qualities to be the Mashiach. But as I mentioned earlier, if you choose to believe the Gemorah actually means that Moshiach will be from the dead(!), it is very clear that that from the entire world of dead people, it only refers to Daniel as being qualified, not the Rebbe ZT”L, which puts you in a very serious quandary.

Besides which, the first half of the Rashi you quote specifically refers to Daniel in the PAST TENSE as Rashi understands it there as former POTENTIAL messiah. The second half of Rashi understands it as referring to his personal qualities that the Moshiach should have.

Your quote from the Abarbanel is actually part of a larger explanation that he refers to as “bilti maspik v’bilti nachon” ‘insufficient and incorrect”. You need to read the entire paragraph, not just the sentence that you like.
(He’s also wrote it in response to Xians who believe in a second coming, just like the meshichistim).

Finally, both the Rambam and Rebbe Akiva’s example are very explicit that once a candidate dies, he is no longer qualified to be the Moshiach. That really should end this argument right here.

On your other points, you clearly also misunderstand the Kahanists. They don’t think Kahane is alive. Not even for a second. They believe his ideology is alive and they are carrying it on. That may be an issue of projecting on your part.

I certainly can’t understand any post-Zionists, as they believe that Rabin was the Messiah and David was a fictitious, mythical character.

Rafael V. Rabinovich said...

First of all, my "selection" of sources, actually, belongs to the late Rav Aharon Soloveitchik. I just looked up his mareh mekomot in a Jewish library.
Secondly, Chabad is a Jewish movement, bringing Jews back to Torah. Many BTs do not end up in Chabad, but have been originally mekareved by Chabad.
That cannot be said of a Gentile, Avoda Zara based movement such as the "Zionist" evangelicals, or the "Israel-loving" Baptists. They are goyim through-and-through, and their Jewish converts, rachamana litzlan, will never know Torah observance as long as they remain in their flock. I have never heard of a BT who started out with a missionary group, unless he was rescued by a Jewish counter-missionary group.
I may add: while Christian grops reject their own responsibility regarding the 7 mitzvot for bnei Noach, Chabad is very much in the leading front of teaching them to the gentiles.
In short, Chabad means Torah Judaism for Jews, Eretz Yisrael for the Jews because the Torah says so, and 7 mitzvot for the Goyim, while the Christian (LEHAVDIL!) groups that "offer you help" have a clear-cut agenda against all of that.

Joe Settler said...

Shabtai Tzvi followers were a Jewish movement. The Karaites were a Jewish movement (and actually still are, which is why they are halachically problematic).

That doesn't change that they each made fundamental mistakes in their theology that eventually took them 'off the derech'.

I do not deny that Chabbad did and even does wonderful work, but it is making a fundamental theological mistake that is taking it down the wrong road.

Joe Settler said...

Regarding your use of the Rav as a proof.

Chabbad like to use this article from 1996 as proof that the Rav held by their position.

The only problem is that there is so much controversy and suspicion around this letter, as it was actually admittedly written by Chabbad Rabbis while the Rav was paralyzed and given to the Rav, who supposedly signed that specific letter (meanwhile the Rav said and wrote completely the opposite in other letters).

Here is the Chabbad version version of that story.

Now if you want to see the Rav write the exact opposite of that letter, read
this (third page is his letter, pages 2 & 3 quote him in an interview).

Here the Rav said already back in 1994 that a Moshiach has to be living, and the Rebbe can’t be the Messiah - he isn’t living.

He also said, "I don't believe it. I don't believe it. It is incredible," Rabbi Soloveichik exclaimed when informed of the words of Rabbi Butman and others in Crown Heights about the imminent return of the Rebbe as Moshiach. The world-renowned rabbi said flatly that "there is no possibility whatsoever" that Menachem Mendel Schneerson would emerge from the dead to be the Messiah. "That could be possible in the Christian faith, but not Judaism."

Which one is the forgery?

Joe Settler said...

I just received an email from Gil Student who writes that R. Chaim Rapoport asked the Rav personally about your letter, and the Rav said it wasn’t true, the letter he signed did not contain the statement that a dead man can be moshiach or any of those sources. That was added in later.

Joe Settler said...

Food for thought:

How many years did it take before Jews didn’t marry followers of Yeshu, before Jews didn’t marry followers of David Ben-Anan, before Jews didn’t marry followers of Shabtai Tzvi, and before Jews won’t marry followers of Rebbe?

Seriously consider that question, because that is the natural progression of events when a group starts down a sectarian path that is unaccepted by the mainstream.

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